Recently the HRD ministry in India made known its desire to have 49% reservation for ST and SCs in institutions of higher education (IOHE). It came as a shock to me and I can not understand how can anybody in the world justify this. So I am going ahead and putting down logical arguements against the ones used my the goverment while comming up with such policies.
1) Education is important for everybody and since ST and SCs figure with lowest literacy percentage they should be given reservation.
Education is important for everybody hence make sure there are more schools so that everybody can get free education. IOHEs should intake students solely based on merit.
2) The higher cast are monetarily better off hence have other resources to benifit from while preparing for exams for these insitutions.
Now this is one thing that comes up very regularly. I strongly oppose this statement. First, Its not always that higher cast people are monetarily better off and have better resources. If you want to help the poorer people act at a more basic level i.e. have reservations for economically backward groups (EBG) and not socially backward (SBG) ones.
Infact, I can go ahead and say that if you do have to give reservations then it should be for people coming from villages. This is so because I feel its not money but the resources which affect preparation to enter into these IOHE. And even the the EBGs in cities have access to better resources than rich people in village.
But inspite of all this I feel these people should be helped with resources and money rather than just giving reservation to them. Take all the groups of the scoiety to a level ground and after that it should be competition. The way its being done now, the country gets worser engineers, doctors and researchers and the brighter ones get bogged down. I would say it also affects the brighter students among the reserved castes. I am sure they would not work as hard if they know their chances of getting into these institutions is very high.
** Also I would argue that its a general trend that ST and SCs are always economically more backward. Actually Ithink its funny for a such a statement to arise in a country like India where Ambani's, Premiji's and Tata's exist. Wow!! not one of them happens to be from higher cast.
3) Even after 60 years of reservation ST and SCs are still backward communities hence percentage of reservations should increase.
I will try to argue against this with two points. One, actually if you see there is a class of SCs and STs who have benifitted from these policies more than other. Take the case of the first generation who benifitted from these policies, the family has come up both socially and economicaly but the children still use these policies and are benifitted a great deal.
So within the reserved castes there is skewed competition. Obviously the huge percentage of reserved catogories are still backward because they have to compete with the developed half of their own for the reserved seats and no doubt they lose. So the ones who have benifitted from these policies long back are continuing to exploit it whereas the new ones can do nothing but just watch and ponder why even after so many steps by their lovable government they are still backward.
****I would have no problems with these reservation plicies if there is an added clause that if one or two generations of a family has benifitted from these pollicies then they are no longer eligible for reserved seats and jobs.
Second arguement is - yes, if something has not worked for 50 years dont you think that may be because there is inherently a flaw in the policy or its implementation and we should try to find that out rahter than still conitnuing it.
I dont know about all of you out there but I seriously get very upset with the whole thing beacuase I can not voice my opinions in a valid forum where somebody hears to them and answers me. Please leave comments about this situation, write your own opinions and may be later these can be compiled and sent over to some better forum.
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12 comments:
Panda, I agree with you in your general frustration against these decisions. If you ask me the reservation system in ANY fucking way is not going to be foolproof. So now you have suggested that there could probably be economically backward reservations or reservations (I am not saying that u said there should...but there could be). The pain with that is how difficult is it in India to get a low income certificate or a false certificate of residence. So I think the whole concept of reservation though probably intended with a good purpose is failing because of the people exploiting the loopholes in it.
In my very honest opinion, I think this is where the preparatory course comes in to more importance. I think the following plan might not have problems.
1) When someone wants to give JEE, they mention if they want to make use of reservation or not.
2) If you do not make use of reservation then fine
3) If you do make use of reservation, you are basically saying that u do not have the resources to be trained properly. So the top say 500 students in the reservation category are chosen and NOT admitted to the IIT normal stream but to the preparatory stream. These students will then be trained at IIT as per the normal preparatory course and then have good resources and hence will have to appear JEE in the common stream
So in this way, this ensures that anyone who is writing without reservation is giving the exam without any bias. This also will make people think abt the tradeoff between the coaching given at IIT and the 'year lost in the process'.
Nothing wrong in reservation. My 3cents
1. Think Indian demographics. Just 30% of India are forward castes. The rest are SC/ST(30%), BC and OBC. So, this is a sure sign of democracy working don't you think? It is the law of numbers.
2. I disagree that reservation has not worked in 50 years. I agree it has not worked perfectly as planned. But effects are permeating the lower strata and you cannot deny it. It gets tougher as you go to the grassroots. But policies must be persisted with. Are you saying that 2 millenia of suppression can be wiped out in 50 years? This is just 1 generation gone by. More time is imperative.
3. I don't know if this is true. But by the way you write, you are ignorant of what lies on the other side. I am assuming you were selected on merit. Your parents were well off to send you a coaching center and then to good university. Your attitude stinks of apathy stemming from this. (EBG) ? either you are joking or america has gone to your head. It is implausible and an immature counter argument put up everytime the debate of reservation comes up. You cannot implement it in India (or even in the US). Period.
Mr. Saurav, If you believe democracy is working in India, this is a surer sign that indeed it is! You know why it is absolutely imperative we continue? because in this generation the youth compose of > 60% of the population. The effects will be more vibrant this time around.
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Some opinions are made by banging on the table. Mine, by banging on my brains.
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1) Slash you should read one of my previous blogs why your first arguement is not good..forcibly replicating the demographic ratio in all the levels is not a sign of good democracy...In fact as people say it the best sign of Indian democracy is working is given by the fact that we have a muslim president and a sikh prime minister ..given your argument any head of state can be only a hindu and most probably from ST,SC or OBC..
Your arguement doesnt show that democracy is working in India..it just shows that people still think of castes and creed above nation while voting..
2) If reservation has worked than it should not be needed any more..yes I think 2 millenia of suppression can be removed in 50 years..If the government from the begining works with a right heart, that is they actually want to bring in the society into a level ground it should work..*****also as I said I am not against reservation but there should be a clause that prevents the same people from using it again and again..I had it as a star point..that will ensure that some day you can actually see it working..i guess you missed it..I hate it when a collectors son uses the quota not only to get into a good school but also has to pay lesser than what other students pay to complete his schooling..
3) Please dont make unncessary personal conclusions..I know people better off than me(actually very rich) who could not get into good schools because of lack of resources....As I mentioned again given the resources arguement there should be reservation for people in villages rahter than reservation based on castes..
4) "either you are joking or america has gone to your head."
I am serious mostly and I want people to ask more questions so that I can have in my mind a better solution..and nah america has not gone into my head..otherwise I wouldn't be writting an article to how to make India a better place..
- I guess your opinions should be mature enough for people to take them seriously,..your signature makes me wonder about your brain..
Mr. Saurav,
1. In a lighter vein, that is not a signature, it is an epithet. I wrote it to pique you and I guess I did accomplish that.
2. Slightly more serious, I added a disclaimer before I drew a personal conclusion. I hate giving examples to buttress arguments and I made a mistake then. I just wanted to say, a majority of the upper strata think like you do.
3. Philosophically thinking like Darwin, Should not the country reflect who her people are? This is pure representative, deliberative democracy beautiful working here. The PM-sikh argument is not democracy. Democracy has nothing to do with religion. And if you are using that to support the fact anyone in India can assume any office. I want to know why we don't have enough SC/ST presidents and prime ministers. What has happened with the president, is purely token show-off democracy, thinking on terms of caste, religion.
And I don't agree that it is bad democracy to replicate (even forcibly?) demographics across layers.
4. Finally, I will still maintain we need more time, 50 years is plainly not enough. The way you say it you have made up your mind (banging on the table). I will not do the same but just appeal to some numbers. So we have a billion people. It reservation has reached every household of SC/STs (25% of 1 billion and 4 per family = 60 million housesholds). Do you think that in 50 years we have created 60M quality jobs for the lower class? I beg to differ.
and the collector's son becoming collector argument. Damn right that is fine. Favoritism is the way that money will permeate to the roots. The collector's son will then favor his friend who is another SC/ST. That is how most of the upper class became economically forwards for years. That is how it must permeate. I agree the country will go to dogs. But whose country is this? The forward castes are a handful and shrinking. The country must reflect what its citizens are -- this is democracy and you cannot deny it.
Mr Slash (sorry dont know your name)
thanks for your view points..I have got few more ideas about the solution and how to make my point more clearer..I hope others will be as helpful as you with their inputs..
Mr. Slash (Sorry, I don't know your name)
I concur with you
This is just another one of those topics where everyone can keep arguing forever. I have my opinion...very basic one. Probably not very well informed. Maybe Ill learn more sometime later! But for the time being Im anti-reservation.
FYI according to Mandal commision(1981-84) the total population of OBC's is 31% and SC 18%
There is a funda of "creamy layer" in UPSC. So EBG is very well present in the system. It just needs better implementation
Mr Slash has some interesting ideas but I believe he is a bit misguided. First of all I believe we should have reservation but it should be directed at the right individuals. I was surprised to see that slash supported the collector's son argument. By accepting reservation the collector's son is depriving another deserving SC/ST student of a seat. In my opinion the collector's son doesn't deserve any reservation as he had all the resources. But may be there was another SC/ST student in a village who didn't have all the resources and so he got less marks compared to the collector's son. But now the collector's son used his caste to (wrongly) get a seat in IIT whereas the student from the village couldn't get into IIT. Do you think it is fair to the SC/ST student from the village?
I think this is the point that saurav wants to put forward. The group of backward classes who have successfully exploited the reservation system are continuing to exploit the system whereas the other group of backward classes continue to lag behind. With this mechanism I think even 600 yrs of reservation won't be enough to uplift all the backward classes.
Before you make any judgements I don't belong to any upper caste neither do I belong to reserved categories. My parents couldn't afford to send me to a private coaching or private school. I had to get in IIT solely on my merit. Still I do believe we need reservation. But it hurts me when I see SC/ST students in IIT whose parents earn 500K an year and who attend private tuitions worth 60K a year (I know that 60K is probably not a big amount nowadays but it was quite big in 1997-1999. My household income was 72K before deductions).. I'm concerned about the SC/ST student in the village who lost his opportunity to study in IIT because this rich SC/ST student from the city wanted to exploit the reservation system inspite of having all the resources..
There is a funda of creamy layer in OBC in Bombay.. But this needs to be extended to all categories and implemented strictly.. I don't want reservations for Economically Backward upper classes, neither do I want reservations for Economically Forward SC/STs who have all the necessary resources..
It is good to see some people at least understanding my post..If reservation had been implemented rightly we should have had a great structure in place by now where competition would be the only filter for people trying to get into jobs, or higher education..
But its never late and I think the young population of India should quickly see to it that its implemented in the right way so that the politicians dont continue to exploit the situation for ages to come..
Mr. Db,
Ok, I was probably a bit muddled in my observations. I have pondered over this many a times. The reason I spoke so vehemently earlier was because I sensed that Mr. Saurav had outright criticized the increase in reservation percentage, which I don't agree with. My point is two fold:
1. As per the last census, we are going to have an explosion of youth in India in the next 30 years (>60%). If we have to make amends it is now. The past is at best a sample indicator. It is now that we will see the true effects and inshallah, they be good
2. I am probably wrong with the collector-son argument. I don't believe adherence to the commandments of any implementation, whatsoever, will happen. Favoritism will exist, come what may. What I should have said is I don't know if the majority of SC/ST exploit this, I don't think anyone does. We have examples at best.
I like the idea of a creamy layer, but it is an idealistic viewpoint. I am skeptical about the efficacy of its implementation in India. And when I said I supported favoritism, it was in the sense of peer pressure. When you belong to the upper stratum of the society, you would be looked down upon if you claim reservation. This is a powerful antidote for favoritism, which does work, perhaps slowly.
Mr. Saurav said : "If reservation had been implemented rightly we should have had a great structure in place". This is a highly contentious statement. For reasons elucidated in my previous comments, I don't think it is possible even in theory. What I am trying to say is this:
The mechanism of using reservations to elevate the poorer sections was mooted primarily because the poorer were typically the lower castes. This might not have had the desired effect and many would argue that the reservation percentage has reached a point of diminshing returns. Increasing it, probably does more harm than good for the country's prospects. I claim that we should continue with it for just a bit longer because of Argument (1). We might pull off a miracle and the trouble is worth it. The implementation ofcourse has and will always be an issue.
Slash, I am on the same directory.
I had heard a Sweeper example, "We had a sweeper, he got a peon job in the Bank and drank away all the money, and his wife came to sweep for us. - These people abuse it"
Well, his son sure won't mess up when its his turn, his mother wont let him. A classic case for reservation in education, there would have been no sweeper in the first place.
DOT
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